Golden-Road.net
Studio 33 - Price is Right Discussion => The TALK Is Right => Topic started by: ComeOnDown98 on August 18, 2020, 06:37:40 AM
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Hey there, beautiful people!
I decided I'd develop a modern driver for Display Systems eggcrate displays... which I have some on hand, as I found a good supplier in Omaha that sells them cheap. :biggrin: $75 a 19S-8 eggcrate digit from the surplus shop is better than $100 a 602L vane digit brand new from ScoreTronics! :dsw:
What I did for my controller design was ignore the use of dollar signs, as some digits, if you try to ground Molex pin 12 to light a dollar sign, would short the 28V supply if there is no dollar sign support.
So, I used a CMOS IC pair... a CD4028 to convert BCD to raw decimal, and a CD4510 to handle parallel inputs, carry, and latching. A CD4511 would branch off to a small LED display for diagnostic purposes, and a TIP127 on each decimal output would invert the signal from HIGH to LOW and handle the high power 28V line. The rest of the electronics run off of 12V. I'd simply run a separate 28V line through a buck converter to drop the voltage down.
Here's an image of how a prototype board is going so far. I just have to wait for the tube of LED displays to come in from China to solder one in and test the board.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/743388313716654110/744379044958568529/KIMG0339.JPG)
Hope you guys like the idea as much as I did!
P.S. I designed this for a custom display using eggcrates.
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UPDATE: I just had a thought...
The 12V side of the board could also be powered from 5V. Say you want to control the displays using Arduino or another microcontroller unit that takes a 5V supply... no problem! That side is rated for between 3 and 15V operation.
The 24V side must not exceed 30V.
And do not apply the 28V line directly to the 12V side. You'll destroy everything that way!
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Would the board be able to handle a 'pulse" so if a contestant plays a game like "Magic #" and wins, the amount displayed would flash?
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Well... to make the display flash, there are two ways I could do that...
1: Use an oscillator circuit to pulse the common 28V line, or
2: Use an oscillator circuit hooked to an OR gate to pulse binary data "1111" into the binary input.
I'd opt for the first choice, though I'd probably need to use a MOSFET to handle the large current.
Strobing "1111" through an OR gate would be your best bet here.
I'd like to add that binary values higher than 1001 (decimal 9) will result in blank output on the CD4028.
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UPDATE...
I found a damaged solder connection on a transistor, and... when I removed the old solder, part of the pad went with it! :mad:
But I was lucky and got more solder back on where the broken solder point was, and it stuck even though a bit of the pad ripped. The transistor sits nice and still now! :biggrin:
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Aaaand I finished it Monday, tested it, and...
*buzzer, losing horns*
The damn thing started glitching as soon as I powered it up! :mad:
I tried replacing a few chips, but it still acted glitchy.
Back to the drawing board with me, I guess...
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If you do get it up and running, I’d be interested in seeing a video.
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Unfortunately, the board was very glitchy when I tested it...
So, I might have to redesign it with TTL chips...
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I did something similar to your project, using a 12V LED power supply, boost controllers, inexpensive relay boards and ESP8266 microcontroller off of Amazon.
The great part about using the ESP8266 is the customization. You can shut either digit off, flash the digits, and have them count down and count up. Pretty much whatever you can think up.
Check it out!
Edit: I guess I'm not allowed to post external links yet. Go to Youtube and search for "Actual Display Systems 19S-8 Vintage Eggcrate Display (Light Bulb Matrix) - Countdown Timer"
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Am I allowed to post links or YouTube videos?
There it is.
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I've built readouts like these before.
One way to do it is to use 5 PROM's to generate your columnar dot patterns. Then use ULN chips to drive the lamps.
You would need a PROM burner.
The 1820 lamps at 28V are way too bright and way too hot. They cause the foam-rubber holes to deform. You're smart to use 12 volts. I would look for LED's to replace the incandescent lamps. You can use TTL chips to drive the PROMs.
If you want to get fancy, you could multiplex the five columns and use only one PROM to generate the columnar dot patterns. That will lower your chip count. I don't recommend this for incandescent lamps but it might work OK with LEDs.
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If you want your display to flash, you need to do it at the controller level rather than at the individual digit level.
Say you have three or four digits. You want all of the digits to flash synchronously and this would have to be done at the controller that controls all of the digits. If not driven by a central controller, the digits will flash in a random asynchronous fashion and it will look quite weird.
Your controller can perform arithmetic, flash the digits, act as a countdown clock, etc.
I will look in my notes at home and see what components I can recommend.
One idea for making the actual display: Take a thick slab of white plastic and make holes in it using a 3D printer and paint the face black and use it as the mask, or use a second, thinner layer of black plastic with matching holes. Then you would make a PC board to hold the lamp sockets, diodes and whatever. Use LED's to keep the heat down. The holes are 5/8" in diameter.
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Here is an LED replacement for the 1820 lamp.
NOTE: YOU WILL NEED TO ADD A CURRENT-LIMITING RESISTOR.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083ZK1T99/?coliid=I11S3MMG5E5DLL&colid=BUK1DQLOWR4B&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
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Here is an LED replacement for the 1820 lamp.
I'm curious to see how one of these units looks with a full set of LEDs, although it's still pricey to re-lamp/modify.
It's not something I'd be doing with my single unit which needs a controller to operate. I thought about purchasing a few more but mine arrived with some damage, so I'm hesitant to buy additional ones.
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I plan to keep mine with actual light bulbs as that's part of the fun and nostalgia of the eggcrate display itself.
There's a guy on Reddit that made an eggcrate display with RGB LEDs so it can display multiple things. Really cool project!
Search for "Remember that eggcrate display I built a couple reddit" on Google.
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Here are some notes from my files:
DISPLAY SYSTEMS READOUT — MODEL 21S
6 1/2" H x 4 3/8" W x 3 1/2" D
DOT DIAMETER: 5/8"
1/16" BETWEEN DOTS
OVERALL COLUMN HEIGHT: 4 3/4"
OVERALL ROW WIDTH: 3 3/8"
Here is another LED substitute. It might not require a current-limiting resistor:
https://www.aero-lites.com/product-page/ge-1819-24vdc-eyebrow-instrument-led-replacement-ba9s-base
With 1820 lamps I've found that you DO need a dimmer.
Yes, LED's are expensive (the networks can afford them). Here are some less-intense lamps:
1892 -- 14.4 volts -- .75 candlepower -- .12 amp -- 1.728 watts
For comparison:
1820 -- 28 volts -- 1.6 candlepower -- .1 amp -- 2.8 watts (original)
To the O.P.: Did you ever figure out why your readouts are glitchy? Are you multiplexing the "segments"?
Here is a ULN chip you could use to drive the lamps:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/uln2803a.pdf?ts=1610719656153
The multicolor LED readout:
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameshow/comments/dowgsl/remember_that_eggcrate_display_i_built_a_couple/
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For anyone interested in the more technical details of my design, including source code for an ESP8266, watch the Youtube video here. Parts list and source code are in the video's description.
(Youtube embed didn't work, so search Youtube for this title: Display Systems 19S-8 Vintage Eggcrate Display (Light Bulb Matrix) controlled by ESP8266; Overview)
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You know, the whole newbies-not-being-able-to-post-links thing is a great anti-spam feature, but sometimes it's detrimental. Like here, when we actually have a new member with some pretty cool designer accessories.
Since I'm a nice, benevolent admin who gives the people what they want...
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I appreciate that. Thank you! If anyone is planning on buying some of these to create a project, I'd be happy to help out with the programming.
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Lavender lollipops, I come back to this topic and it's blown up!
DISPLAY SYSTEMS READOUT — MODEL 21S
6 1/2" H x 4 3/8" W x 3 1/2" D
DOT DIAMETER: 5/8"
1/16" BETWEEN DOTS
OVERALL COLUMN HEIGHT: 4 3/4"
OVERALL ROW WIDTH: 3 3/8"
Model 21S, you say? Do you have any images of the device?
And from the look of the dimensions it seems to be more compact than the 19S-8.
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To the O.P.: Did you ever figure out why your readouts are glitchy? Are you multiplexing the "segments"?
And I forgot you asked about the glitch... turns out it was just ESD being a nuisance and destroying my CMOS ICs.
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For anyone interested in the more technical details of my design, including source code for an ESP8266, watch the Youtube video here. Parts list and source code are in the video's description.
(Youtube embed didn't work, so search Youtube for this title: Display Systems 19S-8 Vintage Eggcrate Display (Light Bulb Matrix) controlled by ESP8266; Overview)
I saw the technical specifications. Not bad!
Mixing vintage bulb displays with a modern WiFi microcontroller to design a countdown timer.
By the way, tell price_authority how the eggcrate display really works...
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No worries! I can appreciate anyone's enthusiasm regarding old game shows and displays. I certainly share it! I wanted to keep mine looking as if it was used on a game show during that hayday, so I'll be keeping everything incandescent.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
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Just saw what was posted on Reddit, and that "Family Feud" eggcrate display demo was pretty cool!
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By the way, tell price_authority how the eggcrate display really works...
You're going to tell Mr. Authority how an eggcrate works? Interesting.
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The actual way eggcrate displays work is that they use diodes on an internal ROM card to map each pixel in the display.
When a signal pin is connected to ground with common referenced at +28V, the current is steered through the diodes and directed to the appropriate bulbs to be lit for the selected symbol associated with that pin.
That, @price_authority, is how these displays work.
P.S. I checked Surplus Sales recently... oh no, the listing's gone! :cry:
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You know, the whole newbies-not-being-able-to-post-links thing is a great anti-spam feature, but sometimes it's detrimental. Like here, when we actually have a new member with some pretty cool designer accessories.
Oh no, how many posts do we have to have before we can post external links?
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@SuperVideoSaver I see your PFP, see Super Saver, and think now that that's probably the only game that ever used dollar signs on Price... (and a minus sign, too. :biggrin:)
I think maybe if I get a working prototype going, I could prototype a diode board to control a tiny grain-of-wheat light bulb matrix to light different patterns. And I could have the input pins PCB-enabled, too.
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The actual way eggcrate displays work is that they use diodes on an internal ROM card to map each pixel in the display.
When a signal pin is connected to ground with common referenced at +28V, the current is steered through the diodes and directed to the appropriate bulbs to be lit for the selected symbol associated with that pin.
That, @price_authority, is how these displays work.
This would certainly be a much cleaner way of doing it. In the case of these Display Systems eggcrates, everything is entirely discreet. About as high tech as it gets on these are traces on a circuit board. Diodes themselves are discreet components, and even the wiring from the Molex connector looks hand-soldered.
(http://klier.us/pub/lmp-19s-8_3_lg.jpg)
You can see where extra wiring was added to display the "$" symbol on these. I am "assuming" when these were ordered new from Display Systems you had an option to order a special character at extra charge.
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This would certainly be a much cleaner way of doing it. In the case of these Display Systems eggcrates, everything is entirely discreet. About as high tech as it gets on these are traces on a circuit board. Diodes themselves are discreet components, and even the wiring from the Molex connector looks hand-soldered.
(http://klier.us/pub/lmp-19s-8_3_lg.jpg)
You can see where extra wiring was added to display the "$" symbol on these. I am "assuming" when these were ordered new from Display Systems you had an option to order a special character at extra charge.
Yeah, like with the O-V-E-R letters in the old showcase podiums and the old Card Game.
Example...
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/priceisright/images/b/ba/Cardgame%2810-12-2004%2914.jpg)
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Hmm... y'know what, as tomcat mentioned, eggcrates are pretty much entirely discreet.
That would mean they'd be easy to replicate, right down to the aluminum foam mask if you searched for a good material.
The diode card can be programmed in EasyEDA or some other CAD program, and you can use 1N5401 diodes as the bits. Cathodes hook to the "word" lines, and anodes to the "bit" lines.
Use BA9s sockets and 1820 lamps for the pixels. The diode card's outputs hook to the ground of the corresponding sockets, and the common (all the remaining socket pins) hook to +28V through a tan wire.
Then, the following colors hook to each word:
0 - black
1 - brown
2 - red
3 - orange
4 - yellow
5 - green
6 - blue
7 - violet
8 - gray
9 - white
Symbol - pink
And use a 0.093" (2mm) 12-pin Molex connector for hookup.
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A follow-up: the diode placement on the board. A 1 indicates a diode present, and a 0 indicates otherwise.
0 - 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
1 - 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0
2 - 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1
3 - 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0
4 - 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
5 - 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0
6 - 0 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
7 - 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
8 - 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0
9 - 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 0
$ - 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0
The result: (# indicates a bulb lit, _ indicates unlit or not present)
0
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
1
_ _ # _ _
_ # # _ _
_ _ # _ _
_ _ # _ _
_ _ # _ _
_ _ # _ _
_ # # #_
2
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ _
# _ _ _ _
# # # # #
3
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
_ _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
4
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
# # # # #
_ _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
5
# # # # #
# _ _ _ _
# _ _ _ _
# # # # _
_ _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
# # # # _
6
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ _
# _ _ _ _
# # # # _
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
7
# # # # #
_ _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
_ _ _ # _
_ _ # _ _
_ _ # _ _
_ _ # _ _
8
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
9
_ # # # _
# _ _ _ #
# _ _ _ #
_ # # # #
_ _ _ _ #
_ _ _ _ #
_ # # # _
$
_ # # # _
# _ # _ #
# _ # _ _
_ # # # _
_ _ # _ #
# _ # _ #
_ # # # _
And the pinout, as viewed from the back:
Horizontal
1 4 7 0
2 5 7 +
3 6 9 $
Vertical
3 2 1
6 5 4
9 8 7
$ + 0
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Hmm... y'know what, as tomcat mentioned, eggcrates are pretty much entirely discreet.
That would mean they'd be easy to replicate, right down to the aluminum foam mask if you searched for a good material.
The diode card can be programmed in EasyEDA or some other CAD program, and you can use 1N5401 diodes as the bits. Cathodes hook to the "word" lines, and anodes to the "bit" lines.
Use BA9s sockets and 1820 lamps for the pixels. The diode card's outputs hook to the ground of the corresponding sockets, and the common (all the remaining socket pins) hook to +28V through a tan wire.
Then, the following colors hook to each word:
0 - black
1 - brown
2 - red
3 - orange
4 - yellow
5 - green
6 - blue
7 - violet
8 - gray
9 - white
Symbol - pink
And use a 0.093" (2mm) 12-pin Molex connector for hookup.
That looks like an awesome plan for a project! I'm hoping more people take a look at designs for these and build them.
Brian
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Yeah, Brian.
I even took the time to draw up a schematic for reference.
Wish I could share but I'm a bit of a n00b at sharing images from my hard drive... :oldlol:
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Okay, I got a Photobucket now. Here's the schematic:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/ComeOnDown98/ECDROM.png)
Note how all the diodes are connected. Also note all the part numbers; the part numbers will be very important so as not to release any magic smoke!
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Hmm... might start another thread since I have an idea and this one's dead anyway...
BRB...
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The actual way eggcrate displays work is that they use diodes on an internal ROM card to map each pixel in the display.
When a signal pin is connected to ground with common referenced at +28V, the current is steered through the diodes and directed to the appropriate bulbs to be lit for the selected symbol associated with that pin.
That, @price_authority, is how these displays work.
There was no ROM in the original Display Systems readouts. ROM is read-only memory. That would require two separate power supplies: variable 0 - 28V for the lamps and 5V for the ROM chip. The lamps had to be dimmable. The ROM chip probably could not deal with a variable voltage. It would also require a way to program the characters into ROM. The old DS readouts were exclusively diodes — no ROM.
Lamp-matrix readouts were used in the '50's and '60's on Twenty One, Tic Tac Dough, The Price Is Right and Say When!! At the time I don't think solid-state diodes had been developed. I think they used a different technology, possibly involving relays. The readouts used on TPIR and Say When!! came from American Totalizator and were also used for race-track betting displays.
When TPIR first came to CBS in 1972 there was an asterisk as the first character in the readouts in contestants' row to indicate the winner. This took the place of the dollar-sign character in the readout. When they went to seven-segment readouts the asterisk was eliminated.
In the movie Quiz Show they did a remarkable job of re-creating the isolation booths on Twenty One. I have a pretty good eye for detail and the readouts and the mics were spot-on. I don't know if Ted Cooper was consulted for the movie, but he worked at NBC NY at the time so he may have been. I understand Ted worked on the "slips" for Concentration, the two boards that displayed the prizes each contestant had accumulated. I was once on the set when Classic Concentration was rehearsing. There was Steve Ryan supervising the slips. He had two stagehands operating the slips and it was WORK. They loaded a prize card every time a contestant called a number. If there was a match, they revealed the prize card; if not, they took down the prize card and awaited the next number to be called. Whew! It was WORK!
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If you were to replicate an egg-crate readout today you'd have to decide whether to make it alphanumeric or numeric-only. If numeric-only you can achieve some economy of design by connecting several of the dots together. With five PROM chips and corresponding ULN chips you could have a full alphanumeric character set.
You could then run a ribbon cable to drive the lamps individually. The driver could then be located remotely and be under the control of software. You could have PC for loading the display, doing arithmetic, etc. and driving the LED lamps. For a five-digit display you would need to control 175 dots (5 x 35 dots per character). This would require 22 bytes of memory (22 x 8 = 176 dots).
I imagine what Wheel Of Fortune does is to have one PC for each contestant. They may have two graphics cards in each PC — one for on-set display and one for controlling it. I don't know how TPIR does bidders' row or the showcases now that they are under PC control. Does anyone know?
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Use BA9s sockets and 1820 lamps for the pixels.
You DON'T want to use 1820 lamps at 28V. They will be WAY TOO BRIGHT and will require an external dimmer. They will generate a lot of heat as well.
I proposed an alternative in an earlier post. I suggest you test a less bright lamp at 12V. It's probably plenty bright for a TV studio.
1892 — 14.4 volts -- .75 candlepower -- .12 amp -- 1.728 watts
For comparison:
1820 — 28 volts -- 1.6 candlepower -- .1 amp -- 2.8 watts (original)
So with 35 lamps you're looking at 60.48 watts with 1892 lamps vs 98 watts with 1820 lamps. That's almost 500 watts for a group of five characters. The studios use big honkin' rheostats to dim them.
I had a conversation with Ev Penn who was Display Systems, shortly before he died in 1981. He quoted me a price of $100 per character (comparable to a Ferranti Packard character).
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Here is a question for someone who owns a Display Systems readout:
What is the THICKNESS of the foam-rubber mask into which the holes are positioned? I have every dimension of the readouts except this.
Thank you.
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That would mean they'd be easy to replicate, right down to the aluminum foam mask if you searched for a good material.
The diode card can be programmed in EasyEDA or some other CAD program, and you can use 1N5401 diodes as the bits. Cathodes hook to the "word" lines, and anodes to the "bit" lines.
Use BA9s sockets and 1820 lamps for the pixels. The diode card's outputs hook to the ground of the corresponding sockets, and the common (all the remaining socket pins) hook to +28V through a tan wire.
Instead of being locked into Ev Penn's design, why not go with a 16-pin connector? Ev's design could be incrementally improved upon.
1 Common
10 Numerals
5 Additional characters: $ + - * OVER BUST blank, etc.
I don't know much about 3D printing but I think you could make your mask as follows. Take a slab of white plastic cut to the proper dimensions and laminate it to an identically-sized sheet of VERY THIN matte black plastic, then cut the holes with a 3D printer. This would emulate Ev's original mask. Heat is still a concern which is why I suggested going with the 1892 lamps if you're not going to use expensive LED's.
What about a housing for your readouts? Are you going to drill holes in your PC board for the lamp sockets and diodes or go with pre-drilled boards? You will want your circuit board to be BLACK on the forward-facing side.