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Studio 46 - Non-TPiR Discussion => Out In Left Field => Topic started by: tpirguyMN on September 14, 2020, 09:53:38 PM

Title: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: tpirguyMN on September 14, 2020, 09:53:38 PM
Just watched both the Jeopardy! and Wheel of Fortune season premieres.  I like the set changes they made to enforce social distancing (including the "white things" used to spin the wheel!  :oldlol:)

Interesting to note that since Jeopardy is limiting contestants to only those from Southern California that the returning champion from last season is not able to return.

What other things did those of you who watched notice about either show?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 14, 2020, 10:37:52 PM
I noticed on Wheel that the board is more zoomed in now, and that they're not really caring anymore about whether the sides of the board get cut off if you're still watching Wheel on a 4:3 TV in 2020.

It was interesting, though expected, how much Jeopardy! acknowledged the circumstances while Wheel basically breezed right by them and kept acknowledgement of it to an absolute minimum. I doubt we'll hear Pat ever say words like "covid", "virus", "quarantine", or "social distancing" (although he did say "distancing requirements"), since it seems like Wheel tries to keep everything, even the puzzles, as positive as possible.

The Bonus Round looked so different seeing Pat actually grab the envelope for himself and standing at the Bonus Wheel instead of at the "mark", and everyone standing apart during the credits. But at least Pat and Vanna can still walk out together. The new Wheel overhead shots also will take some getting used to. I'm so used to seeing the adjacent podiums in the shot.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Ccook on September 15, 2020, 08:39:58 AM
I DVRed Jeopardy! to watch later so I could fast-forward past the political attack ads the local station here runs during it. (Candidates: tell me what you're going to do for us, not what you think your opponent is going to do to us.)
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pannoni1 on September 15, 2020, 09:22:16 AM
Wheel is also limiting contestants to SoCal as well. They did give away a trip to a country that's still on the quarantine list though for the Prize Puzzle last night (The Bahamas). I believe they have until the end of 2022 to claim this, however, and we SHOULD have some vaccine by then based on current tests, even if it turns out to be one that will require periodic injections like the flu. I'd just wish that they would have either all-domestic or even some non-trip prize puzzles like "SHOP 'TIL YOU DROP" for a special shopping spree or "REFURBISHING MY COTTAGE" for maid services for a year. Otherwise, likely due to the concerns, the feel is "post-Harry" than Mike so far, as I was hoping that the Triple Toss Up would be dropped, and this even impacts little things like having team shows since the interviews eat up a lot of time like the extra tossups do.

I like Jeopardy!'s slightly freshened set, and its great to see the globe back with the show's logo this year. Alex did mention though that Zack Newkirk would be back in a few weeks, and when he finally does, it will bring perhaps the final ever episode with co-champions, with a lot at stake for Zack being just one win away from a ToC berth. Of course, like Wheel's zoomed in puzzleboard, having a 4:3 monitor will cut off two of the podiums.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: BillyGr on September 15, 2020, 12:51:38 PM
It doesn't cut off anything - those older sets can be set to fit the picture to the screen (via the converter boxes needed to get digital signals on non digital TV sets).
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 15, 2020, 01:34:30 PM
Quote
It was interesting, though expected, how much Jeopardy! acknowledged the circumstances while Wheel basically breezed right by them and kept acknowledgement of it to an absolute minimum. I doubt we'll hear Pat ever say words like "covid", "virus", "quarantine", or "social distancing" (although he did say "distancing requirements"), since it seems like Wheel tries to keep everything, even the puzzles, as positive as possible.

I’m okay with how both shows chose to address the pandemic (or not).   You want to address the audience to touch base on what’s going on & how they’ll proceed during the restrictions & tough times.  On the other hand, it doesn’t hurt to proceed with life & business.  I don’t see it as ignoring the issue, but just trying to make the best of a situation as much as possible.  To make reference to what Stuart Scott said in 2014, live and operate on your terms as opposed to those of a pandemic (doing so within state & local guidelines of course).

I have to get around to watching the show again, as there was a football conflict so I couldn’t focus on the shows exclusively without conflict.  So far, I think the changes are okay.  Makes me wonder how Family Feud will look whenever that comes back.  OT: I believe FF was slated to start its 22nd season in addition to Jeopardy & Wheel of Fortune.  I don’t know the status of the Feud as there have been no updates anywhere since the beginning of August.

I hope the ability to claim one’s trips is extended beyond 2022.   Maybe make it indefinite (or permanent).  Sure, there may be a vaccine by then, but it typically takes several years before there’s complete trust and normalcy.  I think the fastest turnaround was about 4 years.  I hope we can get close to normal sooner at the very least
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 15, 2020, 01:58:26 PM
Jeopardy continues to look sharp and on top of its game. Wheel looks old, tired and phoning it in.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 15, 2020, 02:33:32 PM
Jeopardy continues to look sharp and on top of its game. Wheel looks old, tired and phoning it in.
Well what else should Wheel do? If they spent all that time upgrading Jeopardy!'s set, they didn't have time to do much to Wheel. Aside from the aesthetics, it doesn't really feel like either show's changed much from Harry Friedman so I don't see why Jeopardy! is suddenly a vast improvement but Wheel isn't.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 15, 2020, 03:33:24 PM
I like Jeopardy!'s slightly freshened set, and its great to see the globe back with the show's logo this year. Alex did mention though that Zack Newkirk would be back in a few weeks, and when he finally does, it will bring perhaps the final ever episode with co-champions, with a lot at stake for Zack being just one win away from a ToC berth.

Not necessarily. There's always the chance of someone unable to make a taping as champ. That does still happen from time to time.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 15, 2020, 03:37:15 PM
Well what else should Wheel do? If they spent all that time upgrading Jeopardy!'s set, they didn't have time to do much to Wheel. Aside from the aesthetics, it doesn't really feel like either show's changed much from Harry Friedman so I don't see why Jeopardy! is suddenly a vast improvement but Wheel isn't.

I was a little surprised to see less changes to either show format wise (Though with Jeopardy, what can you really do? The game is what it is, any changes there would have to be much more aesthetically than anything else, lest you ruin what makes it what it is at its' core.), but given the times we're in and the fact that Mike literally just took both over, it will take some time to see big changes I imagine. To be all at once right off the bat would be too jarring, anything they do change will be gradual I suspect.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: catdogwheel on September 15, 2020, 03:37:49 PM
One thing I noticed is there is a new executive producer for both shows. I won’t say his name, but I will say the Price must’ve been Right for him to take up the offer. My hope is that he’ll be able to modernize the wheel set over time. I know the wheel banister has had updates here and there, but there’s not been any major changes since 2003!
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 15, 2020, 03:42:07 PM
One thing I noticed is there is a new executive producer for both shows. I won’t say his name, but I will say the Price must’ve been Right for him to take up the offer. My hope is that he’ll be able to modernize the wheel set over time. I know the wheel banister has had updates here and there, but there’s not been any major changes since 2003!

In 2010 they changed the actual generic set to what it is now
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 15, 2020, 08:09:31 PM
Just an update on Jeopardy front.....they appear to be showing various moments from over the years in each intro they do. Tonight's had different ones from last night. I'm guessing that will continue as such going forward. I like it, it's neat way to look back at its' history throughout the course of the season.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: JayC on September 15, 2020, 10:49:31 PM
The Jeopardy set looks really nice overall, the only thing I'm not crazy about is the new look for the monitor next to Alex that shows the Final Jeopardy category. The new graphics are a bit underwhelming though, and I was really hoping the globe in the logo meant they were bringing back the rolling ball intro. Tonight was Ken Jennings' first category clue read, we'll see down the line if he really is there to be groomed as Alex's successor.

The new contestant podium on Wheel looks nice, but it does make the wheel look pretty small. The "white thing" is just weird, they should've found a better solution for contestants not actually touching the wheel. Also quite odd seeing Pat stand at the bonus round wheel behind the contestant rather than next to her/him now because of social distancing.

One thing I noticed is there is a new executive producer for both shows. I won’t say his name, but I will say the Price must’ve been Right for him to take up the offer. My hope is that he’ll be able to modernize the wheel set over time. I know the wheel banister has had updates here and there, but there’s not been any major changes since 2003!
I'm guessing there won't be any major changes on either show this season, and possibly not while the current hosts are still there. I do think Mike will modernize things soon enough, but for right now he's just getting his feet wet and the priority for both shows is just to have them filming and keeping everyone safe.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 16, 2020, 12:24:50 AM
The Jeopardy set looks really nice overall, the only thing I'm not crazy about is the new look for the monitor next to Alex that shows the Final Jeopardy category. The new graphics are a bit underwhelming though, and I was really hoping the globe in the logo meant they were bringing back the rolling ball intro. Tonight was Ken Jennings' first category clue read, we'll see down the line if he really is there to be groomed as Alex's successor.

I actually think he could be there as a defacto clue crew stand in, since they can't do that currently. That he's got the past history with the show and could potentially be a successor to Alex may be coincidence. But time will tell. I was kinda thinking they mighta changed the Final Jeopardy music to what was used during the GOAT tournament in January, was I the only one? It'd been years since they last changed it, so would be about due time I think for that.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: jhc2010 on September 16, 2020, 01:32:56 AM
I found it puzzling that in Ken Jennings' category, none of the clues appeared in text on the screen.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Casey on September 16, 2020, 09:18:14 AM
The "white thing" is just weird, they should've found a better solution for contestants not actually touching the wheel.

Like what?  What’s better than something that goes over the peg the contestant wants to grab?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: urbanpreppie0004 on September 16, 2020, 10:52:39 AM
gloves. it would not look nearly as silly as these peg-condom things and they could have branded them with the show’s logo or a wheel...
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 16, 2020, 11:25:04 AM
But gloves would look silly, too. No matter what they did, somebody would have had a problem with the way it looks.

At least they're not doing it all remote and putting people on monitors over the podiums like some talk and court shows are doing now.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: urbanpreppie0004 on September 16, 2020, 11:28:35 AM
But gloves would look silly, too. No matter what they did, somebody would have had a problem with the way it looks.

At least they're not doing it all remote and putting people on monitors over the podiums like some talk and court shows are doing now.

When the virus was at its worst (so far, sigh) people wore gloves shopping, while working, etc. People wear gloves in general protect their hands. It would have made so much more sense. These peg-condom things (thats what they look like, you can't convince me otherwise) look ridiculous and make the show look silly. The fact that wheel is literally trying to produce the same product- set, aesthetics, and even the puzzles and gameplay with little to no acknowledgement of current events is making them look increasingly stupid by the day, and is likely why the game show community is starting to turn on them.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 16, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
I think if they can get clear gloves to where the viewers can't easily tell the difference then that would be okay.  Otherwise, I'll pass on noticeable gloves.  Sure they're better than what they're doing, but I don't know or think many people would sign up if they had to wear gloves to best protect themselves and those around them.  If that's the case, then it isn't safe to tape the show
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: PayingTheRent on September 16, 2020, 12:38:20 PM
I think if they can get clear gloves to where the viewers can't easily tell the difference then that would be okay.  Otherwise, I'll pass on noticeable gloves.  Sure they're better than what they're doing, but I don't know or think many people would sign up if they had to wear gloves to best protect themselves and those around them.  If that's the case, then it isn't safe to tape the show

I would 100% go on Wheel of Fortune right now, gloves or no gloves.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 16, 2020, 03:23:44 PM
But gloves would look silly, too. No matter what they did, somebody would have had a problem with the way it looks.

At least they're not doing it all remote and putting people on monitors over the podiums like some talk and court shows are doing now.

I think gloves would look worse. So much of these different things already IMO look ridiculous, so the less obtrusive to the eye stuff is (and this goes for Jeopardy as much as Wheel) the better for me.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 16, 2020, 03:26:09 PM
When the virus was at its worst (so far, sigh) people wore gloves shopping, while working, etc. People wear gloves in general protect their hands. It would have made so much more sense. These peg-condom things (thats what they look like, you can't convince me otherwise) look ridiculous and make the show look silly. The fact that wheel is literally trying to produce the same product- set, aesthetics, and even the puzzles and gameplay with little to no acknowledgement of current events is making them look increasingly stupid by the day, and is likely why the game show community is starting to turn on them.

What would you like them to do honestly with respect? Cry and moan about the whole thing? I'd rather they didn't. There's enough of that to go around right now. People need some form of escape.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Casey on September 16, 2020, 04:04:45 PM
When the virus was at its worst (so far, sigh) people wore gloves shopping, while working, etc. People wear gloves in general protect their hands. It would have made so much more sense. These peg-condom things (thats what they look like, you can't convince me otherwise) look ridiculous and make the show look silly. The fact that wheel is literally trying to produce the same product- set, aesthetics, and even the puzzles and gameplay with little to no acknowledgement of current events is making them look increasingly stupid by the day, and is likely why the game show community is starting to turn on them.

I’m sorry, but this is a bit absurd. 

Think about why they are using the device they are using.  If I’m wearing gloves, I can still cross contaminate myself and others just by touching my nose with my gloved fingers and then grabbing a peg on the wheel.  The device they are using now, whatever you choose to call it, ensures that the pegs of the wheel are not touched by anything that a person touched.  I suspect it is mighty difficult to get something up inside the “white thing”...  Sure, a person could breathe into it, or cough into it, or something else, but presumably they have spare “white things” available if someone does that. 
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: urbanpreppie0004 on September 16, 2020, 04:44:46 PM
What would you like them to do honestly with respect? Cry and moan about the whole thing? I'd rather they didn't. There's enough of that to go around right now. People need some form of escape.

Of course not. But the way Wheel has handled this with almost no change is one of the biggest problems. No one is expecting them to whine and cry about it. But other shows have addressed the temporary changes to the show. They also haven't done that with puzzles, prizes, the set, the theme, and all those things have become more apparent as they double down on producing such a bland product. Wheel has been safe for a number of years...but now its just boring.

Quote
Think about why they are using the device they are using.  If I’m wearing gloves, I can still cross contaminate myself and others just by touching my nose with my gloved fingers and then grabbing a peg on the wheel.  The device they are using now, whatever you choose to call it, ensures that the pegs of the wheel are not touched by anything that a person touched.  I suspect it is mighty difficult to get something up inside the “white thing”...  Sure, a person could breathe into it, or cough into it, or something else, but presumably they have spare “white things” available if someone does that.
The show is what, 30 minutes shot close to real time? On top of that, the way that contestants have been screened now there's pre-screens and quarantine times before you appear. There's less of a chance of getting it in the first place- every thing they've done is for not just prevention but also cosmetic. And wheel did something that's more meme appropriate.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on September 17, 2020, 10:23:58 AM
First of all...I really want you to stop and think long and hard about gloves and why that is the absolute most ridiculous and stupid thing to use. Period. Seriously. Just think about it. If you can't figure out why, you have some serious problems. *cough* common sense *cough* They're doing the best they can to make sure that they produce shows safely. It's not like any of us thought last year and said we'd be going through all of this in 2020. It's a different time for all of us and we have to make the best with what we can.

Furthermore, Wheel (and J!) are an escape for people from the harsh realities of the world. We are bombarded with COVID this and COVID that on every side - the news, social media, when we go out and about. You're pissed because you think they (Wheel) have not changed enough for COVID and they don't talk about it on end. What do you want Pat to do? Take up a whole round's worth of time to talk about COVID and what they've done and what you can do? Why can't we have a time where we just relax and have fun and let the problems around us just pause? What you're saying is you want them to produce the show all around COVID and make that the center point of the whole show. What do you want the puzzles to be?

"DON'T FORGET TO WEAR YOU MASK"
"DID YOU WASH YOUR HANDS?"
"STAY SIX FEET APART"
"CORONAVIRUS"
"DON'T TOUCH YOUR FACE"
"DR. ANTHONY FAUCI"

No. Just no. Pat described what they did very succinctly and to the point so as not to take away from valuable show time. Getting a set upgrade/refresh would be nice, but regardless they're doing their part to comply with social distancing meaures in order to produce shows that will potientally make people very rich and give people at home 1/2 hour of fun and enjoyment. 
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 17, 2020, 11:23:53 AM
First of all...I really want you to stop and think long and hard about gloves and why that is the absolute most ridiculous and stupid thing to use. Period. Seriously. Just think about it. If you can't figure out why, you have some serious problems. *cough* common sense *cough* They're doing the best they can to make sure that they produce shows safely. It's not like any of us thought last year and said we'd be going through all of this in 2020. It's a different time for all of us and we have to make the best with what we can.

Furthermore, Wheel (and J!) are an escape for people from the harsh realities of the world. We are bombarded with COVID this and COVID that on every side - the news, social media, when we go out and about. You're pissed because you think they (Wheel) have not changed enough for COVID and they don't talk about it on end. What do you want Pat to do? Take up a whole round's worth of time to talk about COVID and what they've done and what you can do? Why can't we have a time where we just relax and have fun and let the problems around us just pause? What you're saying is you want them to produce the show all around COVID and make that the center point of the whole show. What do you want the puzzles to be?

"DON'T FORGET TO WEAR YOU MASK"
"DID YOU WASH YOUR HANDS?"
"STAY SIX FEET APART"
"CORONAVIRUS"
"DON'T TOUCH YOUR FACE"
"DR. ANTHONY FAUCI"

No. Just no. Pat described what they did very succinctly and to the point so as not to take away from valuable show time. Getting a set upgrade/refresh would be nice, but regardless they're doing their part to comply with social distancing meaures in order to produce shows that will potientally make people very rich and give people at home 1/2 hour of fun and enjoyment.

Well said. Plus Pat's hosting style is much more casual relative to Alex, not to mention the show itself is drastically different in presentation and feel as well to go with that. So it'd make sense Alex might speak on things in a little different way and tone from him that way. You'd kind of expect that.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 17, 2020, 12:00:16 PM
Thinking about it, I’m less interested in how Wheel presents their changes, which seem fine, as the fact that the show is just tired. I get there aren’t opportunities like a new clue presenter a la Ken Jennings. And Sajak is who he is. He’s not going to tweak his style.

I do believe shows have a shelf life, and perhaps Wheel has simply reached the point where it’s just surviving on inertia. It’s just the nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: urbanpreppie0004 on September 17, 2020, 12:03:42 PM
First of all...I really want you to stop and think long and hard about gloves and why that is the absolute most ridiculous and stupid thing to use. Period. Seriously. Just think about it. If you can't figure out why, you have some serious problems. *cough* common sense *cough* They're doing the best they can to make sure that they produce shows safely. It's not like any of us thought last year and said we'd be going through all of this in 2020. It's a different time for all of us and we have to make the best with what we can.

Furthermore, Wheel (and J!) are an escape for people from the harsh realities of the world. We are bombarded with COVID this and COVID that on every side - the news, social media, when we go out and about. You're pissed because you think they (Wheel) have not changed enough for COVID and they don't talk about it on end. What do you want Pat to do? Take up a whole round's worth of time to talk about COVID and what they've done and what you can do? Why can't we have a time where we just relax and have fun and let the problems around us just pause? What you're saying is you want them to produce the show all around COVID and make that the center point of the whole show. What do you want the puzzles to be?

"DON'T FORGET TO WEAR YOU MASK"
"DID YOU WASH YOUR HANDS?"
"STAY SIX FEET APART"
"CORONAVIRUS"
"DON'T TOUCH YOUR FACE"
"DR. ANTHONY FAUCI"

No. Just no. Pat described what they did very succinctly and to the point so as not to take away from valuable show time. Getting a set upgrade/refresh would be nice, but regardless they're doing their part to comply with social distancing meaures in order to produce shows that will potientally make people very rich and give people at home 1/2 hour of fun and enjoyment.

First and foremost, you really do not need to come at me the way you did.
Second- the white thing (as Pat as said) look ridiculous. They could have done so many other things- gloves or hand sanitizer (and easily edited them using it out) and decided not to. Other sources have even commented on how they look: https://www.vulture.com/2020/09/wheel-of-fortune-season-38-covid-19-changes.html
Third- When i meant the puzzles and addressing current events- i wasn't talking about COVID, not at all. But the show's puzzles for the last few years have tended to stay away from most references in the last decade or so. There's almost no reference to current events, modern pop culture, and the prize puzzle is something you can see from a mile away.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: urbanpreppie0004 on September 17, 2020, 12:07:16 PM
Thinking about it, I’m less interested in how Wheel presents their changes, which seem fine, as the fact that the show is just tired.

I'm hoping that Mike Richards does SOMETHING. It needs a refresh- from the puzzles, to the lopsided wheel amounts, and the prize offerings.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 17, 2020, 12:46:47 PM
Now that I agree with. Why are they still offering trips? It was said somewhere that Wheel switch to trips only because that's what Harry Friedman wanted. They do occasionally offer shopping sprees, but only as the Prize Wedge and never the Prize Puzzle.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: TPIRfan#9821 on September 17, 2020, 12:57:49 PM
First and foremost, you really do not need to come at me the way you did.
But the show's puzzles for the last few years have tended to stay away from most references in the last decade or so. There's almost no reference to current events,

Come on; the annual [INSERT FOOTBALL TEAM HERE] ARE SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS and space news like MOON LANDING FIFTIETH ANNIVERSARY in Headline, the category for current events, isn't enough for you?   :P

I'll continue to jokingly advocate for bringing back the $175 as a pseudo-penalty space and a retro callback if it allows us to bring back the $1,000. But I'm not in the director's seat, so there isn't anything I can do. I echo urbanpreppie0004's sentiments.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 17, 2020, 01:17:44 PM
The wheel grippers are the least of the issues. They are a far more reasonable approach than gloves for reasons stated, or editing out someone sanitizing the wheel after each spin.

I understand budgets are real, but if I had a magic endless bank account, I’d begin with updating the wheel’s look. The font is so incredibly stale at this point.

And yeah, within reason sprinkle some more money into the values. Those long stretches where the only suspense is whether the player will land on 5, 6 or 7 hundred are boring as heck.

And the set. Blech. The video wall showing some image of whatever the theme is for the week comes across like a half-a—ed, cheap newscast backdrop. And it ties into the long past the point of being interesting set of the week. This many years in, it’s got all the freshness of spoiled milk. But it points to the bigger issue: it’s a fairly simplistic word game, and throwing random c—p on the set is one of the few ways to cover that weakness.

The puzzles are either wildly outdated, not remotely commonly used or stretching the category to the limit. Maybe all of the above on a bad day.

I have great respect for Mike Richards and how he updated Price and Deal. With Jeopardy, I suspect he is smart enough to continue the path they’ve been on with regard to gradual, periodic tweaks. But Jeopardy at its core remains solid. Wheel doesn’t have that advantage, nor the greater space to work with like Price and Deal. He has his work cut out for him.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Trevor Tuominen on September 17, 2020, 01:24:38 PM
About the font, it’s been used since the beginning. That’s like if Jeopardy! updated its clue font from Korrina. Agree with the rest though.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 17, 2020, 02:26:55 PM
Totally understand the font has been there all along. But that shouldn’t, to me, make something sacrosanct. The world evolves, logos and styles evolve. To me, every element should be on the table.

And yeah, I know some people held long grudges about moving from turning letters to the screens. And the shopping. God help us, the shopping.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 17, 2020, 02:28:52 PM
Actually, the font on the Wheel did evolve. It used to be more "bulgy". In 2003, it become more "sleek" to what it is now. Not a huge change, but it did change.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 17, 2020, 03:37:52 PM
First and foremost, you really do not need to come at me the way you did.
Second- the white thing (as Pat as said) look ridiculous. They could have done so many other things- gloves or hand sanitizer (and easily edited them using it out) and decided not to. Other sources have even commented on how they look: https://www.vulture.com/2020/09/wheel-of-fortune-season-38-covid-19-changes.html
Third- When i meant the puzzles and addressing current events- i wasn't talking about COVID, not at all. But the show's puzzles for the last few years have tended to stay away from most references in the last decade or so. There's almost no reference to current events, modern pop culture, and the prize puzzle is something you can see from a mile away.

The only thing that surprised me (besides maybe Pat and Vanna still coming out together in the open, which I mighta guessed they'd not in some form, though I am not bothered by them doing it, gives show a more normal feeling than if they weren't), was the prize puzzle still being a trip. I'd have thought they'd change it right now at least, but they obviously didn't. Maybe as Mike Richards gets familiar with the show you may see more tweaks? He did it a lot with Price, so I'd be surprised if he didn't do any here eventually.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Casey on September 17, 2020, 03:58:39 PM
I agree with most of you I think.  The “white thing” is the least problematic thing Wheel has going for it right now.  It never really has been appointment TV for me, (though my elderly parents watch it religiously).  But it’s not particularly visually interesting, and when 3/4 of the wheel spaces seem to be $550, even that part isn’t interesting.  I do hope Mike, if nothing else, varies up the prizes on offer and the wheel dollar values.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Trevor Tuominen on September 17, 2020, 04:25:29 PM
I think he will.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 17, 2020, 04:42:37 PM
I get the whole concept of a prize puzzle, but it has become another tedious element. Mixing it up might be fun, if you could get away from the need to have the puzzle so closely link to the prize...which has led to countless variations of things about sand, sightseeing, relaxing, etc. Lower the value and maybe the outcomes become less predictable once that's solved.

And again with having no budget constraints in my imaginary world, but the cramming of sponsorships has rendered the whole idea of a $5000 space pointless. Contestants almost never spin in the fourth round, and Pat darn near never hits it. It's a glittery waste because the show plods along like a pack of Florida senior citizens driving their golf carts in a school zone.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 17, 2020, 09:22:22 PM
I don't pretend to be any sort of a regular Wheel watcher, but here's my wish list-slash-brainstorms for Mike Richards.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: JayC on September 17, 2020, 10:53:54 PM
One thing they could do to update things is make the wheel wedges digital, which would eliminate the contestants picking up the cardboard wedges and would allow for more variation on the amounts and different configurations each round. I'd rather have individual contestant backdrops again too rather than the video wall behind the contestants.

Cut toss-ups back. There's zero reason to be playing three $2,000 toss-ups in a row. If you absolutely MUST have at least three toss ups, play one before each of the first three rounds. Player in third place spins first in rounds 4-6 if applicable.
They didn't put the Triple Toss-Up in just for the sake of having more toss-ups. I believe the Triple Toss-Up began as a way to allow a trailing contestant to make up ground heading into round 4. The Prize Puzzle winner typically being the big winner is another issue, but the Triple Toss-Up helps by giving a contestant a chance to catch up by solving 2 or 3 of them.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: TPIRfan#9821 on September 17, 2020, 11:10:29 PM
They didn't put the Triple Toss-Up in just for the sake of having more toss-ups. I believe the Triple Toss-Up began as a way to allow a trailing contestant to make up ground heading into round 4. The Prize Puzzle winner typically being the big winner is another issue, but the Triple Toss-Up helps by giving a contestant a chance to catch up by solving 2 or 3 of them.

You know, that's exactly what I thought too, but I only found like two examples of the outcome changing because a non Prize Puzzle winner, and ironically a few times where the Prize Puzzle winner won when they wouldn't have. I've taken the TTU as a way to shield the retirement of the 1/2 Car tags.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 17, 2020, 11:28:52 PM
Well, if they increased the amounts on the wheel, per gamesurf's suggestion, then the extra toss-ups wouldn't be needed.


I think I'm truly & definitely the only one for the following: If they got rid of the $1 Million part of the game, then I wouldn't lose sleep over it
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 17, 2020, 11:30:37 PM
They didn't put the Triple Toss-Up in just for the sake of having more toss-ups. I believe the Triple Toss-Up began as a way to allow a trailing contestant to make up ground heading into round 4. The Prize Puzzle winner typically being the big winner is another issue, but the Triple Toss-Up helps by giving a contestant a chance to catch up by solving 2 or 3 of them.

My issue with it is that it eats even further away at the actual rounds, which already seemed to be strapped for time before the TTU was added.

Heck, if they ditched the final spin completely and just replaced the fourth round with with a final speed round of tossups, like, $1K/$2K/$3K/$4K/$5K, that might not be a terrible way to end the game. I just think doing both is too much.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: blozier2006 on September 17, 2020, 11:43:27 PM
My issue with it is that it eats even further away at the actual rounds, which already seemed to be strapped for time before the TTU was added.
Knowing Harry, that's probably why he added the TTU, to exacerbate the time problem, and thus further assure that the Final Spin will, 95% of the time, come on the first spin of the round (where Pat is least likely to hit the $5,000).
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 17, 2020, 11:58:51 PM
Knowing Harry, that's probably why he added the TTU, to exacerbate the time problem, and thus further assure that the Final Spin will, 95% of the time, come on the first spin of the round (where Pat is least likely to hit the $5,000).
And am I the only one who noticed over the past couple of years that the Toss-Up puzzles are longer than they used to be? Like, they'll be four or five words and take up practically the whole middle two rows of the board. Like, in older seasons they have done "BASEBALL GAME", but today they would do "GOING TO A BASEBALL GAME".
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on September 18, 2020, 09:54:15 AM
I think I am echoing a previous post here, but with J!, there's not much else you can do to the show other than changing the look every few years. J! is straightforward and no-nonsene gameplay and always has been. The only other thing they could do would be increase the dollar values on the board. And, in reality, there's no sense in doing that. $200 in 2001 is equal to around $293 and change today (46.8% inflation rate). The addition of the Clue Crew and the allowing champions to keep coming back as long as they win along with the dollar figure change in 2001 is really the only thing gameplay wise they have altered and they really can't do anything else. Everything else is visual and audible. But that has worked well for them, as you can see.

I have to say that I've always been a bit miffed that J! gets a longer season and more attention than Wheel. Harry seemed to always have a special love for J! and put emphasis on it, especially over the summer digging in to the vaults and bringing back old shows, (I'm assuming he had something to do with this on his way out?) or having a primetime stint on ABC. I know legally speaking it's "harder" for Wheel to dig in the vaults because of royalties for the music used over the years. I am not sure what kind of deal J! has with Merv's estate by keeping the same theme from the get go and just updating it every few years, but it would be nice if Wheel had the same agreement. Granted, Wheel uses a lot more music/cues than J! ever has because of prizes, location shoots, etc. and that may be why they don't have that kind of deal because the royalties on the music packages may be astronomical. I don't know how the legality of all of it breaks down. But, the original Changing Keys is still iconic for Wheel after all these years. Heck, they still use it for their Wheelmobile stops! Also, I think it would be kind of fun if they did a primetime stint where it was tournament style and they have celebrities play for charities. If marketed the right way, it might draw in quite the number of viewers. I don't think Wheel has had an all celebrity game since Halloween 2000, if I am remembering correctly.

Of course, one could say that J! and Wheel cater to two different groups of people. Just peruse Twitter for a few moments and you will see what I mean. A lot of people think that Wheel is a game for simpletons, fools, and "old people." It's the butt of many jokes for them. While there are some, such as myself, who enjoy both programs, there are those who love one or the other, and I think Harry took that in to play a lot. Do I think Wheel could use some changing and freshining up? Absolutely! And not just visually. Besides a revamped set, puzzles more aligned with today's culture would be awesome. Trips are nice, but so are electronic packages, shopping sprees, RVs, and boats. No, I don't think we need to regress back to shopping, but varying the prize pool would be a great place to start. Varying the dollar amounts on the Wheel would be nice, too.

But, one thing to understand is - this is Mike's first season for both shows. We all remember how it went when he started at Price 12 years ago: he went in and made drastic changes almost overnight and the Price fan community was ready to burn him at the stake! Maybe he used that as a learning experience and has decided to make gradual changes to each show. He's still getting his feet wet, and with COVID, this is a much different scenario that he could have ever expected to have to tackle. Give him time. Who knows? He might have some surprises up his sleeve as the season rolls on. We are only at the end of Week 1. Be patient and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 18, 2020, 10:32:38 AM
Regarding "more attention" to Jeopardy, that strikes me as not the reality. Look, the primetime ABC specials were about capitalizing on a lightning-in-a-bottle moment with James. It created a perfect "third" legend. That doesn't exist with Wheel and never would, regardless of returning champions, because the game is more fundamentally luck based.

They're simply two different programs, and there is no obligation on the producers' part to act as if they're equal human children. It's all a business. (And that sets aside that there is a Wheel promo every single day leading into Jeopardy on my station--Wheel gets plenty of attention and promotion.) If Jeopardy is doing better, that's simply the way it is. This isn't going to be "Now, Johnny, we all saw your project, now it's Sally's turn." It's a, uh, game of numbers.

Jeopardy is also in a strong position to be able to constantly have new material building its library of questions, er, answers. They have always had current alongside the historical, and that continues, so it tends to feel fresher. Wheel is challenged in that regard. Common phrases and places and things don't change that much, so yes, this many years in, they're scraping pretty low sometimes to come up with puzzles--and it shows. I still think if you could freshen up other elements with a significant overhaul (even over a period of years, like Price), you might be able to somewhat mask that shortcoming, but as things currently stand, it is one of many pieces that feel dated.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 18, 2020, 04:34:29 PM
Regarding "more attention" to Jeopardy, that strikes me as not the reality. Look, the primetime ABC specials were about capitalizing on a lightning-in-a-bottle moment with James. It created a perfect "third" legend. That doesn't exist with Wheel and never would, regardless of returning champions, because the game is more fundamentally luck based.

They're simply two different programs, and there is no obligation on the producers' part to act as if they're equal human children. It's all a business. (And that sets aside that there is a Wheel promo every single day leading into Jeopardy on my station--Wheel gets plenty of attention and promotion.) If Jeopardy is doing better, that's simply the way it is. This isn't going to be "Now, Johnny, we all saw your project, now it's Sally's turn." It's a, uh, game of numbers.

Jeopardy is also in a strong position to be able to constantly have new material building its library of questions, er, answers. They have always had current alongside the historical, and that continues, so it tends to feel fresher. Wheel is challenged in that regard. Common phrases and places and things don't change that much, so yes, this many years in, they're scraping pretty low sometimes to come up with puzzles--and it shows. I still think if you could freshen up other elements with a significant overhaul (even over a period of years, like Price), you might be able to somewhat mask that shortcoming, but as things currently stand, it is one of many pieces that feel dated.

There's also the fact that with returning champions always taking much more prominence with J! than Wheel, it made idea of doing longer seasons not only more appealing but just more sensible, since doing reruns would be a bit more challenging for it vs. its' sister show. I feel that played into the decision to extend it after Season 1 as much as anything, even with only the single TOC tournament (I believe? Someone can correct me if I am wrong, I don't think the College tournament or Seniors Tournament was a thing then yet, I know the Teen one wasn't at least till Season 3) that they could use for at least 2 weeks of them. Then of course as more tournaments became the standard from there, it was much easier to slot them out without having to run any regular games.

I have wondered incidentally this year, if they may try and go straight through from Season 37 to 38 without any reruns at all if they can possibly do it, both with having to cut 36 short by 40 games due to COVID and more than likely not being able to run any tournaments for the same reason. I could see them at least thinking about it.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 18, 2020, 05:30:39 PM
Honestly I wouldn’t be considering the extra cost if I were them. If they started on time, absolutely no one (excluding some people with way too much time on their hands) is going to be thinking come next summer, “Hey, they shorted us a bunch of shows last year.” They’re just not.

Homes using television/HUT levels drop off precipitously in the dog days of summer. The ad revenue isn’t going to offset the costs of adding “make up” shows.

Honestly, the focus should be on contingency planning for which reruns go on should there be a shutdown for whatever reason that ultimately prevents them from airing without a break. Hope you don’t need it, but have the plan ready.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on September 18, 2020, 05:35:38 PM
Wheel nixed the returning champs simply because with Wheel, it's not about the best player winning. It's about luck. The best player could be knocked out of the top spot in the last round simply by Pat hitting $5000 in the final spin and a player with 0 could jump to $18k (or more) with one letter, solve, and win. With J!, it's almost all about the best player winning the game, and that's what sense for them to have a returning champ. I think it would be neat if Wheel brought back the best players of the season for a tournament of sorts (a la Some of the Greats week from the mid 90s) and let them play for charity. It may sound "gimmick-y" but it could attract potentially more viewers. Wheel hasn't had the top spot in the Neilsen ratings in quite a while, a spot it used to hold easily (granted it still has a slight lead over J! as of Aug. 31). Feud is beating Wheel followed by Judge Judy holding the number one spot. I find it shocking that sexual innuendos, double entendres, and Steve Harvey's over the top dramatics for said answers beat out Wheel (and J! for that matter). Wheel doesn't have to stoop to that level. In fact, if they did, they'd probably sink themselves. But, it's going to take more than mobile app sponsored sweepstakes to knock the staleness off game show giant.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 18, 2020, 06:52:17 PM
Wheel nixed the returning champs simply because with Wheel, it's not about the best player winning. It's about luck. The best player could be knocked out of the top spot in the last round simply by Pat hitting $5000 in the final spin and a player with 0 could jump to $18k (or more) with one letter, solve, and win.

Valid points all, Wheel has obviously has worked fine as a one-and-done show for decades. I get the reasoning behind it.

But it's something to shake the doldrums out of it. If a contestant is likable, and they win, I have one more reason to tune in tomorrow.

And it offers a chance to mask cuts to the prize budget. You don't have to offer massive gobs of cash in the bonus round every single time if you know the winner is going to come back tomorrow for a chance to try again.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 18, 2020, 07:18:35 PM
Quote
Feud is beating Wheel followed by Judge Judy holding the number one spot. I find it shocking that sexual innuendos, double entendres, and Steve Harvey's over the top dramatics for said answers beat out Wheel (and J! for that matter). Wheel doesn't have to stoop to that level.

You know, I tend not to laugh at my own thoughts/comments/jokes as if I were doing stand up, but it's difficult without cracking up to picture what Wheel of Fortune (and even Jeopardy) would be like if Steve Harvey hosted.

Say what you will, but the Harvey era of Family Feud beating Wheel gives it bragging rights given the latter pretty much took out the original version nearly 4 decades prior.  Not a big deal really; as mentioned, with people at home watching more TV, including a lot of reruns, it did help Feud over Wheel.


Quote
Valid points all, Wheel has obviously has worked fine as a one-and-done show for decades. I get the reasoning behind it.

But it's something to shake the doldrums out of it. If a contestant is likable, and they win, I have one more reason to tune in tomorrow.

And it offers a chance to mask cuts to the prize budget. You don't have to offer massive gobs of cash in the bonus round every single time if you know the winner is going to come back tomorrow for a chance to try again.


I may have been somewhat critical about my comments on returning champions earlier this week, but it wouldn't hurt for this to be reinstated.  If Wheel were to go back to returning champions, what would be a recommended limit, if any?

Maybe make it like Hollywood Squares where you returned until you lost or if you won the big prize (with better odds each time you won the main game), whichever comes first
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 18, 2020, 07:40:04 PM
Always worth remembering Feud counts as a double run.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 18, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
I may have been somewhat critical about my comments on returning champions earlier this week, but it wouldn't hurt for this to be reinstated.  If Wheel were to go back to returning champions, what would be a recommended limit, if any?

Maybe make it like Hollywood Squares where you returned until you lost or if you won the big prize (with better odds each time you won the main game), whichever comes first

Well what you could do is....since the Million Dollar Wedge is in play anyway, have the limit be either till they won the Million (with say an added space on the bonus wheel each show they won should they get there with it), or till they surpassed it in normal winnings, whichever came first. That'd add a lot more intrigue regularly than just having the possibility of a random person winning it every night. You'd also have the potential for some super huge winners the more they won, ala Jeopardy. I actually think it could have been a good idea to do from when they first introduced it.

And come to think of it too, with the travel limitations now, everyone being local for time being coulda been a good time to implement such a thing to cut down on the need for new contestants. Kinda surprised an idea wasn't thought about, be it that one or others.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 18, 2020, 07:54:34 PM
Always worth remembering Feud counts as a double run.
Feud airs SIX times a day in syndication alone where I live. Used to be four, but they added two more last month. Judge Judy also airs four times a day where I live. Jeopardy! airs twice, and Wheel of Fortune only airs once.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 18, 2020, 08:15:32 PM
Yes but to my latest knowledge the national averages count a double run for Feud. In any event, the deck is skewed.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: urbanpreppie0004 on September 18, 2020, 10:32:32 PM
Here's what i would do...

Intro
Pat and Vanna Walk out
Contestant intros
$1K Toss Up Round
1st round, TDV- $2K (prize varies each day)
2nd round, TDV-$3K+ $1K
3rd round, TDV-$4K+ $1K and $1500
$2K Toss Up round
4th round, TDV- $5K+ $2K and $3k
Bonus round
End

1st round- is different every day. Prize Round, Express, Jackpot on rotation.
Bonus round- Starts off with a flat $30K in cash for most of the envelopes, but there's also cars, Dream vacations, extreme shopping sprees (40K, 10K at 4 different stores) and cash amounts in 40, 45, 50, 55, and 60K. 100/1M still available.
Vowels are now $500
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: JayC on September 18, 2020, 10:49:38 PM
I think I am echoing a previous post here, but with J!, there's not much else you can do to the show other than changing the
But, one thing to understand is - this is Mike's first season for both shows. We all remember how it went when he started at Price 12 years ago: he went in and made drastic changes almost overnight and the Price fan community was ready to burn him at the stake! Maybe he used that as a learning experience and has decided to make gradual changes to each show. He's still getting his feet wet, and with COVID, this is a much different scenario that he could have ever expected to have to tackle. Give him time. Who knows? He might have some surprises up his sleeve as the season rolls on. We are only at the end of Week 1. Be patient and hope for the best.
I do wonder if not for COVID and having more time before tapings began if Wheel would've made more changes this season besides the social distancing and safety set changes and provisions. I also think we may not see anything major while Pat (and Vanna) are still hosting though.

Heck, if they ditched the final spin completely and just replaced the fourth round with with a final speed round of tossups, like, $1K/$2K/$3K/$4K/$5K, that might not be a terrible way to end the game. I just think doing both is too much.
Interesting idea, though I disagree with not having the wheel be in play at all in round 4.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 19, 2020, 07:40:52 PM
Does anyone else think the Crosswords were just an excuse to bring back Fill in the Blank but without having to give the $3000 bonus for knowing the "blank" word after solving? I mean, when the clue is "_____ CARD", it's basically the same concept
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on September 21, 2020, 10:51:23 AM
I've often thought that. Makes sense considering how they've done a lot to cut corners over the last few years. I mean they don't even take the show on the road any more, except for once in Season 35. I remember not too many years ago, there were leaked emails from Sony that showed they were considering taking the show international and going around the world visiting countries that have their own versions of Wheel and taping shows there. Now, the most we get is Pat and Vanna doing B-rolls from different cities in the US that and dressing the set in Culver City to look like said city for a week. I mean, it's okay, but also comes off kinda cheap and cheesy. Of course, Miss Rona has halted doing any of that right now, anyway. But, in the future, I'd love to see Mike pick that back up again. All in all, Wheel has stayed true to the core of the game ever since its inception. For that they can be praised. But there's still a lot they could do to spruce it up. A fresh coat of paint never hurt anyone. Again, I want to give Mike time to get acclimated in to the role. But it makes me wonder, even though he is Executive Producer, if Sony is preventing him from having the creative control you'd expect an EP to have? He appeared to have pretty much free reign with Price. Maybe Sony treated Harry the same way in his final years. Maybe for budgetary reasons? Who knows...It still looks like J! gets all the perks and Wheel gets the crumbs.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 21, 2020, 11:30:47 AM
If the previews for this week are indicative—holy heck, that Cookie Jam sponsorship that was annoying in small doses last week is absolutely hideous in its full set takeover. I’m not unsympathetic to needing money to pay the bills, but this reeks even worse than the usual tie-ins.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 21, 2020, 11:36:41 AM
I saw the promo this morning too. The question is, how many of the puzzles are they going to stretch to be themed around candy and sweets? One of them was already shown being solved in the promo. I miss when the puzzle could be anything at all, not just something positive that fits to traveling or the week's theme and avoiding paying royalties for titles, celebrity names, brands, etc.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 21, 2020, 12:39:48 PM
The themed puzzles do become tiresome. But that set is hideous.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Spmahn on September 21, 2020, 02:42:13 PM
I’m surprised they’re even doing the tie in with Cookie Jam which is just an in an endless line of Freemium mobile games that are all derivative of Candy Crush which is derivative of Bejeweled which I am sure is a rip off of something else. I am sure they are paying, but it comes off as pretty low rent for a show as high profile as WOF.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 22, 2020, 07:36:53 PM
It’s a remarkably cheesy sell-out. Yikes.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: NewsDirector3287 on September 22, 2020, 09:56:47 PM
I'm also of the opinion that Wheel needs some sprucing up.  It used to be my favorite game as a kid, and I still think it is a good game, but the show as a production has been on autopilot for a while.  Touching on what gamesurf said earlier, it seems that lately, they have been introducing elements that seem to either heavily reduce the wheel's influence (Express) or remove it altogether (Triple Toss Up). 

Short of turning this into a "How would I fix Wheel" post, I'll say that I think Mike did a good job retooling Price (and relaunching Let's Make a Deal) and that given time, he'll hopefully do the same with Wheel.  Jeopardy!, on the other hand, is perfect, with the only issue being the inevitable host search (which hopefully isn't for a long while).
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Spmahn on September 23, 2020, 11:59:18 AM
The problem with Wheel is that the game itself largely doesn’t matter, and you can basically just dumb luck yourself into winning. One player could run the board and have one bad spin, then the next player spins and lands on a vacation or high value space, guesses one letter, solves the puzzle, and then wins the whole thing. It’s far too easy for one player to get far enough ahead in one round that it becomes impossible for the other players to catch up.

It’s the same problem Family Feud has, the first three rounds don’t matter because the fourth round values are tripled, there’s 4 answers on the board and the question is “Name a month of the year that ends with -ber”
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: PatrickRox80 on September 23, 2020, 12:32:42 PM
The Mike Richards era of Jeopardy! isn't off to a good start. Two controversies in Final Jeoaprdy! out of seven shows? Holy cow.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 23, 2020, 12:53:51 PM
“Controversy?” Keep perspective. A handful of people can’t figure out that Barry and berry aren’t the same word spelled differently, and last night...was nothing but, what, a lone blogger ranting into the abyss?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 23, 2020, 03:28:48 PM
I didn't know there was a controversy and I just did a google news search for "Jeopardy" to see if it was making waves. The top hits are:


I had to look into the j-archive to find out what the "controversy" even was.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: jude_este on September 23, 2020, 03:35:43 PM
I didn't know there was a controversy and I just did a google news search for "Jeopardy" to see if it was making waves.

Doubt it will ever make the news but this (https://thejeopardyfan.com/2020/09/editorial-stop-being-so-persnickety-mike-richards.html) is the editorial that imhomerjay was referring to that said lone blogger ranted about a contestant's response to yesterday's Final Jeopardy and the previous week's Barry/Berry controversy gamesurf.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 23, 2020, 03:59:19 PM
Quote
We knew that we were going to see small changes to Jeopardy! under Mike Richards. However, I’m very concerned about the direction the show is headed, if the early part of Season 37 is to be believed.

...

Thus, I have to ask you: stop being so persnickety, Mike Richards. Your viewers are counting on you. Your future contestants are counting on you. The ultimate future of the show is counting on you.

(https://i.imgur.com/oigftKi.png)
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Casey on September 23, 2020, 06:51:40 PM
The Mike Richards era of Jeopardy! isn't off to a good start. Two controversies in Final Jeoaprdy! out of seven shows? Holy cow.
I like that you just assume that Mike Richards is standing there in the studio making the judge’s rulings.  Aren’t the people who make the rulings the same people who’ve been doing it for quite some time?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 23, 2020, 07:20:17 PM
Indeed they are.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: PatrickRox80 on September 23, 2020, 08:26:32 PM
A handful of people can’t figure out that Barry and berry aren’t the same word spelled differently

That ruling I agree with, and I still stand by it. Berry and Barry are not pronounced the same, so close enough isn't enough.

However, the other one rubbed me the wrong way. It referred to two different titles, and they ruled one unacceptable due to the vagueness of the clue. And what's worse, that decision did affect the outcome.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Trevor Tuominen on September 23, 2020, 11:17:24 PM
I had to go through JBoard.tv to see it. Contestants have gotten back after badly-worded clues before, like the late Bob Mesko, a five-time champ from Season 22.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: bigblue999 on September 24, 2020, 01:18:15 AM
The whole Barry/Berry fiasco is ridiculous. It’s a person’s proper name; it needs to be exact.

You want to know what’s outrageous? Last week Wheel promoted on Instagram that something “historic” would happen on the 9/23 episode. It was Vanna wearing the same dress twice for the first time ever. Not only was that a complete lie (https://buyavowel.boards.net/thread/11983/vannas-repeated-dresses), but people also tuned in to see a $100k loss.

Talk about flagrant false advertising.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 24, 2020, 01:32:25 AM
The whole Barry/Berry fiasco is ridiculous. It’s a person’s proper name; it needs to be exact.

You want to know what’s outrageous? Last week Wheel promoted on Instagram that something “historic” would happen on the 9/23 episode. It was Vanna wearing the same dress twice for the first time ever. Not only was that a complete lie (https://buyavowel.boards.net/thread/11983/vannas-repeated-dresses), but people also tuned in to see a $100k loss.

Talk about flagrant false advertising.

Wow......that's REALLY bad. Worse than cookie jam promotion mania bad (which I don't entirely hate aesthetically actually like some do, not much worse than anything else they've done in past IMO). That's more befitting of an April Fool's show ala Price's 10,000th thing show in 2012, than anything legitimate. What a joke that is. I wondered what it'd be tonight too thinking about it, talk about a big disappointment.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Trevor Tuominen on September 24, 2020, 09:46:09 AM
Definitely a huge ratings trap for sure.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 24, 2020, 01:56:15 PM
Hasn’t it been like two years since the last time someone won the $100,000? I remember when people used to win it every few months like three times a season, but two years? They really can’t afford it anymore, can they?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 24, 2020, 02:43:25 PM
And last night's puzzle wasn't that hard with the letters. It just works that way sometimes.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 24, 2020, 02:55:13 PM
And last night's puzzle wasn't that hard with the letters. It just works that way sometimes.

And to be fair, how can they really avoid a $100k win given the spins are as random as they are? It's as much luck as anything I think on that aspect at least.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 24, 2020, 04:30:45 PM
Just spitballing--in theory the producers could have 4 or 5 puzzles of varying difficulties prepared, all tied to whatever value gets spun, and go "he landed on the I, load the $100,000 puzzle".

I definitely don't think that's what they do, especially since these days contestants get to choose their bonus round category, but it wouldn't be impossible to tie the difficulty to the prize at stake if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 24, 2020, 05:30:43 PM
Just spitballing--in theory the producers could have 4 or 5 puzzles of varying difficulties prepared, all tied to whatever value gets spun, and go "he landed on the I, load the $100,000 puzzle".

I definitely don't think that's what they do, especially since these days contestants get to choose their bonus round category, but it wouldn't be impossible to tie the difficulty to the prize at stake if they wanted to.

I've often thought, or used to think they did do that, more often than not.  Then upon seeing a player lose out on $38,000, I'm sorta surprised that they haven't
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 24, 2020, 08:24:33 PM
I've often thought, or used to think they did do that, more often than not.  Then upon seeing a player lose out on $38,000, I'm sorta surprised that they haven't

Could they do that with S&P? I wonder though if THIS woulda factored into them using the electronic board from 1997 onward if they have. They could change puzzles on the fly where they couldn't before.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: blozier2006 on September 24, 2020, 08:25:43 PM
Could they do that with S&P?
I'd figure that, so long as it's disclosed to the contestants before the show that they're doing it, then yes.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 24, 2020, 08:28:59 PM
I'd figure that, so long as it's disclosed to the contestants before the show that they're doing it, then yes.

Ah....good point. Didn't think of that.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 25, 2020, 01:39:36 AM
Ah....good point. Didn't think of that.

Makes sense.  Speaking of the 1997 move to electronic, it would've been interesting if the Bonus Wheel had preceded that move.  Maybe a ton of 3, 4, or 5 letter puzzles
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 25, 2020, 02:21:36 AM
Makes sense.  Speaking of the 1997 move to electronic, it would've been interesting if the Bonus Wheel had preceded that move.  Maybe a ton of 3, 4, or 5 letter puzzles

That woulda been. Have they really done 3 letter puzzles much in bonus land? I can't recall any, now or even before. I can't even recall many 4 or 5 letter ones for that matter.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: blozier2006 on September 25, 2020, 04:11:53 AM
That woulda been. Have they really done 3 letter puzzles much in bonus land? I can't recall any, now or even before. I can't even recall many 4 or 5 letter ones for that matter.
The 4- and 5-letter ones were more of a thing in the 90s, primarily while Nancy Jones was still producer.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: TPIRfan#9821 on September 25, 2020, 05:29:02 AM
Have they really done 3 letter puzzles much in bonus land?

Yes. Quite a few actually, but it was also a 90’s thing. This one comes to mind first (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3ir9jm).

One account even recalls AX as a puzzle.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 25, 2020, 04:19:41 PM
"Three letters, you have to find them all."

"C, D, Z, (laugh), and, uh, (grinning) O."

*ding! ding! ding!*

I've seen some blatant puzzles giving a middle finger to the contestant, but I don't think I've ever seen a contestant laugh and give a subtle middle finger back. The way she laughed and put emphasis when calling "Z" and "O" was a delicious way to say "yeah, I know exactly what you're trying to pull here".
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Spmahn on September 25, 2020, 04:40:24 PM
It’s not that much different from Price where games like Lucky 7 are often setup to be an almost certain loss by having the price be $18,291. Wheel definitely sets up puzzles full of lots of uncommon letters to make it much less likely to win. If your final puzzle is “Oak Bureau”, then they probably didn’t want you to win.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 25, 2020, 05:38:14 PM
Yeah, but when that happens in Lucky Seven you never see a contestant smugly and confidently shout "Nine!" and "One!".
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 26, 2020, 05:37:40 PM
In Lucky Seven there aren’t any categories either.  Obviously there are certain makes & models of their automobiles; no big comparison otherwise.  Speaking of categories…


Quote
If your final puzzle is “Oak Bureau”, then they probably didn’t want you to win.


It also doesn’t help when the producers have misleading categories for their Bonus Puzzles.  For instance, if the category is EVENT, unless you call out an A (and/or a K), you might not win if the puzzle is “Kayaking” since several assume the category to be an actual event and not something that might be a better fit for category What Are You Doing
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 26, 2020, 06:15:26 PM
In Lucky Seven there aren’t any categories either.  Obviously there are certain makes & models of their automobiles; no big comparison otherwise.  Speaking of categories…

It also doesn’t help when the producers have misleading categories for their Bonus Puzzles.  For instance, if the category is EVENT, unless you call out an A (and/or a K), you might not win if the puzzle is “Kayaking” since several assume the category to be an actual event and not something that might be a better fit for category What Are You Doing

I wonder how they can get away with that........that seems to be kinda borderline cheating against the contestant no?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: JayC on September 26, 2020, 09:45:40 PM
There was a contestant that was invited back last season because of a misleading category in the bonus round, so it has been an issue at least once.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on September 28, 2020, 02:56:38 PM
I know it's now in its third season now, but I'm still on the fence about letting the winner pick their bonus round category. I like it, but I don't. I feel as if it was put in as "change for the sake of change since it's a new season and we need a new 'gimmick.'" But, it could (and should) dispel the fact that they put in hard bonus round puzzles on the fly if the player lands on a high amount on the bonus wheel. (Which, by the way, that's still a thing that naysayers think have been happening for years, and you can't get them to change their mind no matter what facts you show them that proves them wrong.)
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Axl on September 28, 2020, 04:06:53 PM
I like that you just assume that Mike Richards is standing there in the studio making the judge’s rulings.  Aren’t the people who make the rulings the same people who’ve been doing it for quite some time?

Harry Friedman was the chief judge and final arbiter on J! when he was executive producer. (He was there in the studio for every taping, sitting at the table.) There is no reason to think Mike does not also fill that role now that he has taken Harry's place.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: LiteBulb88 on September 28, 2020, 05:37:36 PM
I know it's now in its third season now, but I'm still on the fence about letting the winner pick their bonus round category. I like it, but I don't. I feel as if it was put in as "change for the sake of change since it's a new season and we need a new 'gimmick.'" But, it could (and should) dispel the fact that they put in hard bonus round puzzles on the fly if the player lands on a high amount on the bonus wheel. (Which, by the way, that's still a thing that naysayers think have been happening for years, and you can't get them to change their mind no matter what facts you show them that proves them wrong.)

They could easily have two puzzles ready in each category. I'm not saying they do, but they certainly could.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 28, 2020, 11:57:41 PM
They could easily have two puzzles ready in each category. I'm not saying they do, but they certainly could.

Yeah, I don't think this is really THAT far-fetched as a "conspiracy theory" if you will. If they can legally get away with doing it, I'm sure they would.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pannoni1 on September 29, 2020, 08:04:57 AM
Then there's the conspiracy theory about setting up the Round 4 Wheel to the point where Pat can't land on the final spin since most of the time nowadays, and also having the "running out of time" bells ring accordingly. On average, Pat misses the $5000 by about seven spaces nowadays. Then there's other budget controls like having shorter puzzles, the Crossword category more often, and more car wedges in the Bonus Wheel if its valued less than the cash minimum. Something seems suspicious out there in Wheel land, something that would have been a complete no-no if Merv was still around.

While I'm not too thrilled about being able to choose the category for the Bonus Round, I still think that the Triple Tossup, introduced last year, is far worse. It's part of the reason why 10 of the first 11 episodes this season have started with a speedup for R4. Quite honestly, I wouldn't mind mid-commercial breaks in R2 or R3 like in the old days, while possibly having a speedup for R3. In addition, while I've talked before about how I'd change the Wheel layout and tended to focus more on bringing back retired elements like the Jackpot wedge or spaces like $1500 or $2000, I'd focus more on something that makes a certain other show more exciting at its halfway point: Doubling the current values of the Wheel starting with Round 4. Have the center of the Wheel display "DOUBLE", once over each contestant in a curved font to avoid viewer confusion. This would allow for contestants trailing from a moderate deficit to still have a shot at catching up, and if we had the $5000 space in 1983, $10,000 today in 2020 would certainly make sense in an overdue matter. Also, drop the tossup prior to interviews and return the Triple tossup to a single to allow for more time to play a supercharged Wheel. Finally, eliminate the Prize Puzzle; I'd rather just have those resorts sponsor a round/element instead. 

Of the retired elements however, I would bring back the Free Spin token, I'd have it where you can earn another one if someone wins one in a previous round (up to 3). A nice compromise between the old wedge and the token, and I'd still award money for the dollar amount that the token is hidden under. Even though its been off the Wheel for over a decade, its still an iconic fixture of the show itself, lasting over three decades and even appearing as an element on a pinball machine in the form of an extra ball.

Finally, as a possible spiritual successor to the Jackpot, I'd bring back a variant of the gold/red letter puzzle where in one round, if you solve the puzzle right after that specially colored letter shows, you win a $5000 bonus.

But now doubt that Harry's forte is Jeopardy! He pitched to lift the returning champions limit, yet when he took over Wheel, he eliminated them first for the Friday Finals, and then in 1998, got away with them altogether. That says a lot about his stance between the two shows.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 29, 2020, 08:24:26 AM
 It says he felt it worked better on one program and less on another. It’s not favoritism. They are different entities.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 29, 2020, 08:34:33 AM
Wouldn't it be illegal if they added more car wedges than cash prizes?  I guess I haven't paid too close attention but I was certain that it was 50/50 cash & prizes in the Bonus Round.


The landing on $5000 in Round 4, IIRC, used to happen more often than not in the past.  The wheel was set to where Pat would often land on it; Round 4 used to start with the speed up round right off the bat a lot.  I get where you want to give others a chance, but I was never a fan of someone winning the game after starting the round with $0 but then he or she was lucky enough to overtake someone by at least a couple bucks or a few bucks.  In someone, that meant a player did enough (or won everything) prior to Round 4 (with a total of at least $15,000 - $20,000) to deserve to go to the bonus round.  OTOH, if said contestant was leading with a total of $9,000 or something similar, and then lost at the end, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.

If it's a competitive game, then I'm all for $6,000 per letter in speedup.

As for the Free Spin, I'm all for that returning!

I never had an issue with Harry respecting Jeopardy more than Wheel.  I love both, but Jeopardy's earned that
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 29, 2020, 09:30:40 AM
Hmmm, not sure how it would be illegal to configure the wheel with more of one prize than another provided there’s not a statement to the contrary.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Briguy on September 29, 2020, 10:38:35 AM
I get where you want to give others a chance, but I was never a fan of someone winning the game after starting the round with $0 but then he or she was lucky enough to overtake someone by at least a couple bucks or a few bucks.  In someone, that meant a player did enough (or won everything) prior to Round 4 (with a total of at least $15,000 - $20,000) to deserve to go to the bonus round.

But that's how Wheel has been for 45 years ... a game where you can have rotten luck for almost the entire game, but get a lucky spin of the wheel or (if it's the Speed Round) call the right letter and you win the game. Not to imply you're thinking this, but having a game like Wheel where the late rounds are meaningless – i.e., the game is such where there's no chance to win the game in the last round and overtake the leaders – wouldn't make Wheel very fun.

Just like the Game of Life – the late 1970s version where you can become a "Millionaire Tycoon" after having rotten luck and being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt (by taking a low-paying career and then having a 10-child family, landing on all the wrong spaces, being on the wrong end of "Revenge" raids, losing in the stock market, passing on insurance but landing on disaster spaces, etc.) just by one lucky spin of the wheel. The others, who have dominated the game, are now beaten.

Or "Concentration" – the game where your opponent can, through sheer luck and chance, match almost every prize on the board but just can't solve the puzzle or make the last match ... and then the poor opponent that's been waiting on the sidelines either matches a Take card and swipes a desired prize (in the 1970s, it was almost always the room of furniture, the trip to Las Vegas or any of the other Head Starts) and immediately solves the puzzle.

Or – sometimes – real life. Amazing how a game show that we've loved for 45 years can mirror real life.

And don't forget ... sometimes, a contestant that seems to get by on sheer luck and a few lucky breaks is actually a good player who just didn't get a chance, either because of some good calls that just weren't correct or always seeming to landing on Bankrupt or Lose-a-Turn. But when he/she does get their opportunity, watch out! I mean, look at all the times throughout Wheel's history where a contestant has his/her only shining front-game moment on the last spin or even letter call of the day, solves the puzzle to win the game, and then solves the Bonus Round puzzle for the grand prize.

Brian
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 29, 2020, 01:46:06 PM
Then there's the conspiracy theory about setting up the Round 4 Wheel to the point where Pat can't land on the final spin since most of the time nowadays, and also having the "running out of time" bells ring accordingly. On average, Pat misses the $5000 by about seven spaces nowadays. Then there's other budget controls like having shorter puzzles, the Crossword category more often, and more car wedges in the Bonus Wheel if its valued less than the cash minimum. Something seems suspicious out there in Wheel land, something that would have been a complete no-no if Merv was still around.

Those don’t sound like “conspiracy theories.” It sounds like using Occam’s Razor.

Even in the 1970’s, producers using (legal) tricks to control their show’s pacing and prize budget wasn’t some secret plot, it’s literally part of their job description.

Sounds like Sony gave Wheel a massive prize budget in the 00’s-early ‘10’s, and now they’ve painted themselves into a corner because they’re “expected” to offer certain prizes and they’re afraid they’ll look cheap if they walk them back.

And don't forget ... sometimes, a contestant that seems to get by on sheer luck and a few lucky breaks is actually a good player who just didn't get a chance, either because of some good calls that just weren't correct or always seeming to landing on Bankrupt or Lose-a-Turn. But when he/she does get their opportunity, watch out! I mean, look at all the times throughout Wheel's history where a contestant has his/her only shining front-game moment on the last spin or even letter call of the day, solves the puzzle to win the game, and then solves the Bonus Round puzzle for the grand prize.

Brian

Yeah, if I want to watch a show where the most “deserving” player wins, I’ll watch a hard quizzer. When a show is called “Wheel of Fortune”, and the centerpiece of the show is a big spinning wheel, I totally expect luck to play a huge role in winning.

Wouldn't it be illegal if they added more car wedges than cash prizes?  I guess I haven't paid too close attention but I was certain that it was 50/50 cash & prizes in the Bonus Round.

There’s no law or FCC regulation saying a bonus round has to offer certain prizes, it just requires them to be fair about the prizes they do offer. They could use 24 envelopes with different amounts of Rice-a-Roni if they wanted to.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on September 29, 2020, 02:18:08 PM
I don't think they've ever mentioned (and not sure they're allowed to) what the breakdown of the prizes are on the bonus wheel. I just know that since they do the $3x,000 as the lowest amount based on the show's current season, they no longer have $40,000 as an offering. It jumps to $45,000 then $50,000. I feel as if they just have one $50,000 envelope alongside the one $100,000/$1,000,000 envelope, while all the others have multiples of differing amounts, with the $3x,000 being the most (obviously). I just know that over the 19 years it's been in play, the distribution has changed drastically. Honestly, I'd be fine if they went to having just the car of the week, $50,000, and $100,000/$1,000,000 being in play. There would just have to be one more envelope of either the car or the cash, cash preferably.

11 - cars
12 - $50,000
  1 - $100,000/$1,000,000
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 29, 2020, 02:31:09 PM
I’m sure they’re allowed to disclose it, I just thought that they didn’t want to because it allowed them more flexibility to change the distribution from season to season.

But then they went with that bafflingly stupid “house minimum is 3X,000 and goes up every year” which totally negates the benefit of doing that.

It’s not like $25,000 was an unimpressive prize.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 29, 2020, 02:42:27 PM
Well put, Brian.  First things first: I agree that a meaningless speedup would not be fun.  Of course, if I'm rooting for someone that would be safe, I'd prefer it.  Other than that, no thank you to meaningless segments.  It's sorta like a runaway score in Final Jeopardy!

At the end of the day, that’s life, and life’s not fair.  However, I wouldn’t mind so much if someone is crushing it, but then his/her/their opponents finally “get on the board” but the game continues because it becomes competitive.  For example, on Family Feud (this applies more to the classic versions with Richard and Ray than what it’s been for at least the most part for over a decade) a family wins each of the first 3 questions but ends up losing the game because their opponents won the last 2.  I’m only with that because someone isn’t losing the game outright after doing everything right but making one mistake to someone that has done nothing.  With Feud, you finally mess up & your opponent is on the board, but it’s not over yet.  It’s anyone’s game.

Overall, I like a competitive game, with Wheel and Jeopardy!  With the latter, it brings strategy through the game and the final.  With Wheel, that means everyone wins (though there can only be one big winner for the bonus round).  The occasional rout is fine (or sweep), and so are the come-from-behind wins.  Just not a fan of it if it’s due to a big round that renders everything else meaningless
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: rockyboy34 on September 29, 2020, 04:53:03 PM
It’s not like $25,000 was an unimpressive prize.

It's probably a bit too cheap for today's standards. That's why it was retired in 2010 and the new minimum back then was $30K.

I'm fine w/ $35K being the Bonus Round minimum for future seasons as that's how much $25K was back in '02.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 29, 2020, 05:13:03 PM
It's probably a bit too cheap for today's standards. That's why it was retired in 2010 and the new minimum back then was $30K.

I'm fine w/ $35K being the Bonus Round minimum for future seasons as that's how much $25K was back in '02.

I wonder what happens when they hit $40,000? Stop there maybe? Make that the new min? I can't see them going back down to $35,000.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: rockyboy34 on September 29, 2020, 05:21:24 PM
^ That's what I was afraid of. They really should've stopped at 35.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 29, 2020, 05:25:13 PM
I really don't think the "inflation" case is that strong. A win is a win. I'm struggling to imagine the sort of viewer that will be unimpressed by a $25K win but be impressed by a $30K one, or a $38K one.

It's cycling through the same few prizes that bothers me, way more than the "cheapness".

I imagine it's the same logic behind making every minimum amount on the wheel $500 because they don't want to look "cheap". Yes, it's nice the contestants are winning slightly more money, but the tradeoff is you can only have amounts $500-$900 on the Wheel. That's boring.

I really don't think many viewers are going to care there's slightly more money being won on average. I do care when every bonus round feels exactly the same.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 29, 2020, 06:34:52 PM
Don’t fall for over analyzing from a game show nerd standpoint. Regular folks by and large don’t analyze things anywhere near so deeply.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on September 29, 2020, 07:06:37 PM
Don’t fall for over analyzing from a game show nerd standpoint. Regular folks by and large don’t analyze things anywhere near so deeply.

Hell I bet most Barker era Price watchers, the casual ones anyway, didn't even realize they cycled through the same prizes, to the point about what Wheel does. So I doubt that enters minds a lot of those who watch it for the sake of it.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Flerbert419 on September 29, 2020, 08:04:54 PM
I’m sure they’re allowed to disclose it, I just thought that they didn’t want to because it allowed them more flexibility to change the distribution from season to season.

They have changed the distribution much more frequently than that. There is evidence (https://buyavowel.boards.net/thread/7665/season-bonus-round-wheel-stats) that they bump it up during Secret Santa weeks and lower it after big wins to keep the budget under control.

Even the contestants do not know when they are on stage what the distribution is at that moment. It's bizarrely secretive.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on September 29, 2020, 08:08:39 PM
I think that’s exactly right. Also the reason people with a particular, I’m, devotion to a topic think something is a controversy when...it’s really not. How “average” people watch a program is not remotely the way fanatics do.

Does that mean someone wouldn’t notice a smaller amount on the bonus prize wheel? Sure. Are they, by and large, going to find that to be so unpalatable that they stop watching? Are they going to go viral on social media with their takedown of the show? Eh, no. A few tweets will be tweeted. A blog will be blogged. And the world will spin on its axis.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: gamesurf on September 29, 2020, 08:20:56 PM
Yeah, my point is that more throwing more money at the screen doesn't automatically translate to more excitement or a better show. I think Wheel has forgotten this.

Bonus round wins are down from to around 60-65 per season (https://gameshows.fandom.com/wiki/Wheel_of_Fortune_(2)/Records_%26_Statistics) than 75-80 from ten years ago.

Now, I don't have any evidence that seeing more winners in the bonus round will translate to the average viewer tuning in more often.  But I don't think the average viewer cares about inflation or "this win wasn't as big as that win" or whatever. They just want to see people having fun and winning nice prizes.

They have changed the distribution much more frequently than that. There is evidence (https://buyavowel.boards.net/thread/7665/season-bonus-round-wheel-stats) that they bump it up during Secret Santa weeks and lower it after big wins to keep the budget under control.

Even the contestants do not know when they are on stage what the distribution is at that moment. It's bizarrely secretive.

That's really interesting--thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 29, 2020, 10:04:33 PM
I totally agree. I'd much rather see 3-4 people win per week with a mix of 30/35/40 than 1-2 per week with 99% of the wins being 3XK or a car.

What if they made a "TRIPLE" card? Since most people have around 15K before the bonus round, winning that would technically just be 30K. But it could be really exciting on one of those rare times where someone steamrolls with 40K+ before the bonus round.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: PimpinJC on September 30, 2020, 10:11:06 AM
I think what causes the show’s budget to suffer is that they’re required to give away more than $25,000 per show, which includes:

4 “house minimums” x $1,000 (for a 4 round show)
1 toss-up x $1,000
4 toss-ups x $2,000
2 “prize puzzle” trips x $6,000 average (1 for the contestant, 1 for the “Spin ID” promotion)

Back in the old days, the show was set up so that only the “house minimums” had to be given away.

The toss-ups are reasonable to select starting position for the 1st and 4th rounds, but beyond that, everything else is just being given away to give away money.  Seriously, the “prize puzzle” trip is literally a consolation prize for winning the round: no requirements by the contestant, no risk, no nothing.  This is on top of the house minimum they would still get.  If there would be some requirement to earn the trip, then even that would be something.  E.g., give the contestant an opportunity to risk their round earnings on a toss-up puzzle to play for the trip, where the rest of the contestants play for cash.

Or better yet, offer something else other than a trip everyday.  Seriously, especially now during the pandemic, that isn’t conveying the best message, even if it is valid for several years from now.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: SeaBreeze341 on September 30, 2020, 10:30:00 AM
I didn't think about that, the $25,000 minimum total.  Does anyone know off the top of the head what Jeopardy's average winning total is?  Save for the $3000 consolation total, they only have to pay out the winning total for the winner after Final Jeopardy!  There is no bonus round in Jeopardy (unless there really is and I either blacked out or it doesn't air in my area)

While the $25,000 might hurt its budget, I don't know what they can do or whether they should go back.  I think they could but it might not be a popular move.  OTOH, as mentioned, I don't think the average viewer would care about that.

I do enjoy the big wins, a lot more when I was younger, but I am with the camp that likes a win, period.  If the bonus round was for $25,000 or a car around that amount, I'd be satisfied.  The contestant won the bonus round.  That's what counts for me.  Winning a Million is great, but not imperative.  Now, if the reward was only $125, that is a different story!
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 30, 2020, 10:31:21 AM
I think what causes the show’s budget to suffer is that they’re required to give away more than $25,000 per show, which includes:

4 “house minimums” x $1,000 (for a 4 round show)
1 toss-up x $1,000
4 toss-ups x $2,000
2 “prize puzzle” trips x $6,000 average (1 for the contestant, 1 for the “Spin ID” promotion)

Back in the old days, the show was set up so that only the “house minimums” had to be given away.

The toss-ups are reasonable to select starting position for the 1st and 4th rounds, but beyond that, everything else is just being given away to give away money.  Seriously, the “prize puzzle” trip is literally a consolation prize for winning the round: no requirements by the contestant, no risk, no nothing.  This is on top of the house minimum they would still get.  If there would be some requirement to earn the trip, then even that would be something.  E.g., give the contestant an opportunity to risk their round earnings on a toss-up puzzle to play for the trip, where the rest of the contestants play for cash.

Or better yet, offer something else other than a trip everyday.  Seriously, especially now during the pandemic, that isn’t conveying the best message, even if it is valid for several years from now.

Actually, the trips are minimum $7,000 now, but they're often over $10,000 lately. And they don't give trips to SPIN ID's anymore. Now they only draw SPIN ID's when someone wins the Mystery $10K wedge (they also win the $10K cash), which only happens around once every couple weeks.

They're clearly out of prize ideas. Last week, the prize wedge was just $10,000 cash with a sponsor logo slapped on it. They already offer that prize via the more difficult Mystery Wedge, and remember when it used to be a golden wedge between two mini Bankrupts?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on September 30, 2020, 10:35:10 AM
Does anyone know off the top of the head what Jeopardy's average winning total is?  Save for the $3000 consolation total, they only have to pay out the winning total for the winner after Final Jeopardy!  There is no bonus round in Jeopardy (unless there really is and I either blacked out or it doesn't air in my area)

I don't watch J! as often as Wheel, but sometimes I'll catch the very end when the winner is crowned and I notice that the winner's final score is often more than Wheel's winning score before the Bonus Round or if they lose the Bonus Round. Last time I caught new eps of both, J! had $22,X01 and Wheel had $17,XXX (though that person did win the bonus). There was another day I caught both where J!'s winner had $19,801 and Wheel's had $17,006 and she lost the bonus. Although it's worth noting that the absolute minimum value it's possible to win Wheel with is $7,000, whereas J!'s winner can easily be lower. I caught both shows' reruns this past weekend and J!'s rerun had a winning score of only $5,201.

But if we're talking total amount given away per show, then Wheel definitely wins (except for the months of April-June 2019...  :P )
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: wheelfan1991 on October 01, 2020, 10:35:44 AM
Just using data from last week's shows, the Wheel winners averaged $40,161 per day. Watching J! the last little bit, I've only seen on average around $22,000 a day for the winner. Of course, with Wheel, all the players get to keep whatever they win, so Wheel's giving away substantially more than J!
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: RatRace10 on October 01, 2020, 11:51:39 AM
True but that's only if you count the Bonus Round. A couple days ago, Wheel's winner had only a little over $12,000 while J!'s had about $19,000. Though this balanced out yesterday, where Wheel's winner had over $34K before the bonus (and then won 50K more!) while J!'s had $23K-ish.

Although I don't watch J! as much, I feel like more people break the $20K mark on J! than on Wheel.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: LiteBulb88 on October 01, 2020, 12:59:20 PM
Keep in mind that unlike Jeopardy!, Wheel gives all players the earnings they won during the game, not just the winner. This makes a big difference in terms of how much money Wheel gives away per show.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: pricefan18 on October 01, 2020, 03:59:59 PM
Keep in mind that unlike Jeopardy!, Wheel gives all players the earnings they won during the game, not just the winner. This makes a big difference in terms of how much money Wheel gives away per show.

And I imagine the budget in turn. Plus, until a contestant on J actually loses.....they aren't on the hook for their earnings yet, so they'd have more wiggle room within their budget day to day no?
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on October 01, 2020, 04:44:57 PM
This isn’t a mom and pop shop with today’s cash flow funding tomorrow’s invoices. Beyond which, there are plenty of short term champs.

Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: Axl on October 01, 2020, 11:03:39 PM
Sounds like Sony gave Wheel a massive prize budget in the 00’s-early ‘10’s, and now they’ve painted themselves into a corner because they’re “expected” to offer certain prizes and they’re afraid they’ll look cheap if they walk them back.

It seems pretty clear that both shows have been under the budget gun in recent years.  Just look at the ever-shrinking size of the Jeopardy! Clue Crew and how many clues they present in-studio compared to on the road.  Sarah Whitcomb Foss even pulls double-duty now as an associate director.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: imhomerjay on October 02, 2020, 09:23:58 AM
On that last point, perhaps she earned that job and it’s something she wanted to do.
Title: Re: Wheel and Jeopardy Return
Post by: sayingsorry on October 05, 2020, 07:13:09 PM
On that last point, perhaps she earned that job and it’s something she wanted to do.

Agreed. As much as I am sure she loves doing the clues, career wise AD is much better than just clue crew.